During the day (and night thanks to a certain “media personality”) Tuesday, Joba Chamberlain made some small waves with his comments about his ability to be a starting pitcher; not surprisingly, he still thinks he can start. Obviously, this isn’t going to happen for the Yankees. Joba will be a free agent after this year (time sure flies) and presumably, he’ll look for some team that will let him start. The last thing you need this afternoon is another beating of this long dead horse, but I can’t help it; this situation is still a thorn in my side.
Call me an apologist. Call me an optimist. Call me naive. Whatever you call me, I don’t believe Joba Chamberlain failed as a starter. He never even had the chance to fail. Joba was not great by any means. Though he flashed brilliance in 2008, he did get away with some shaky in-zone command. In 2009, he was inconsistent. However, the wider judgement across baseball and definitely across the Yankee organization, was that if he couldn’t do it then, he’d never be able to do it. A fairly irrational absolutism pervaded the discussion of Joba’s role. The attitude seemed to be ‘Well, Joba can’t do it now, he’ll never be able to do it, so he’s not a starter anymore.’ For whatever reason, he was expected to be a finished product despite a dearth of professional experience.
Certainly, the absolution didn’t reside on just one side of this debate. Of course Joba was going to be a front line starter. There was no doubt! However, he wasn’t given the chance. Joba may never have become the ace pitcher some of us envisioned him becoming. He could’ve been ineffective. He could’ve gotten hurt to the point where it would’ve been impossible for him to throw 180-200 innings a year. The latter sort of happened, but they never quite tested him out again. Because he never got a chance to fail (or succeed for long periods of time), his career as a starter remains an open book in my mind. Regardless of all that, though, he didn’t pan out as a starter. Some of the blame definitely lies with him as he didn’t exactly make it easy for people who defended him as a starter, given his up-and-down performances in 2009. But, the organization’s impatience with a young 20′s pitcher in the league’s toughest division still irks me.
If we take a step back from Joba and look at the pitchers with whom he’s most frequently associated–Ian Kennedy and Phil Hughes–we see something concerning. We can argue that of the “Big Three,” Kennedy has been the most successful. What’s concerning about that is that Kennedy had to leave the organization to reach (surpass?) his ceiling. There were other mitigating factors regarding Kennedy’s departure (it was a trade, after all), but by fans, analysts, and evaluators alike, Kennedy was considered to have the “worst” stuff and the lowest ceiling with the smallest upside. Yet he’s made himself into a successful starter in Arizona while Joba works as a reliever and Hughes still battles inconsistency. The Yankees definitely kept the two pitchers who were better at the time of the trade. What’s more, it’s possible (probable) that Kennedy–a pitcher whose possible 2010 role was unknown–would not have performed as well in New York as he has in Arizona. Still, the race was handicapped in the Yankees’ favor and they somehow came up short.
Joba’s comments don’t bother me and any he makes in the future won’t bother me either. I don’t think he gets enough credit for not complaining about and commenting on the way the organization jerked him around, though he’s certainly had right and reason to do so. The idea of Joba-as-Yankee starter is obviously over and done with, but it’s a situation that will always bother me. The situation was, for lack of a better term, completely and totally mind boggling.
Looking back, it reminds me of the Joker’s line from “The Dark Knight” about being a dog chasing cars and not knowing what to do if he caught one. The Yankees were long searching for high-end talent and when they got it, they didn’t have the slightest clue as to how to handle it. To a lesser degree, it extended to Phil Hughes’s situation and it makes me nervous for the future of not just Yankee starting pitching prospects–Manny Banuelos, Brett Marshall, Jose Campos, Jose Ramirez, Rafael DePaula, Ty Hensley, etc–but also the quartet of Gary Sanchez, Slade Heathcott, Tyler Austin, and Mason Williams. The Yankees have been without premier position-player talent for a long time and when they did have a player who could be identified as such, they traded him away for thus far questionable returns. Until they prove otherwise, when it comes to prospects, the Yankees will be a dog chasing cars.
Yes, my beloved Yankees appear to be dogs chasing cars, with regard to handling prospects. I remember in the mid 90s, it seemed the whole league was made up of former Yankees. This has been going on for a long time. Who was responsible for bringing along the core four? Was that Stick Michaels?
Joba Chamberlain will ALWAYS fail because he takes steroids. There is no way around it. That is why he can’t throw a million miles an hour any more.
Oh, okay.
Its because they lock themselves with big money long term deals and the market demands they play in makes it hard for them to have a losing season. Considering they run the team like this it’s hard for them to take gambles on these kids. Let’s also face the fact that Kennedy stunk in if not all his Yankee outings
Really? Are you talking about Austin Jackson? He undoubtedly has more long-term value than Granderson but he was a unrealistically high BABIP phenomenon in 2010, plain awful in 2011 and great last year. Unfortunately, the Yankees probably would have traded him anyway (to the delight of most of their fans) after 2011 and his consecutive 170 and 180 strikeout seasons.
If you’re not talking about Jackson you’re talking about Montero and you have more of a case but only because of Pineda’s injury since Montero didn’t do dick last year (and no, it wasn’t all Safeco’s fault). Let’s give it another year before we judge.
I think that with respect to position players the Yankees’ failure has been more in drafting poorly. You can’t take Cito Culver ahead of Nick Castellanos, Mike Olt, (sandwich picks), Jedd Gyorko and Andrelton Simmons (2nd round) in 2010 or Andrew Brackman ahead of Todd Fraizer (sandwich pick), Travis d’Arnaud, Giancarlo Stanton and Freddie Freeman (2nd round) in 2007.
You’re always going to miss some guys and, of course, the Yankees could of only had two of those guys I listed (one from each draft) but how much better would things look now with any two of those guys or what they could have brought back in trades?
I thought it was fairly clear I was referring to Montero w/the returns comment.
Well, OK – I discussed Montero and I still say it’s too soon to judge that trade. I would however, like to amend my comment about Safeco’s effect on Montero as he did have a pretty significant home/road split last season (much better numbers on the road). But since he’s probably destined to be a DH (or bad fielding first baseman) he’s not nearly as valuable as a front line starting pitcher. I can’t kill the Yankees over that trade as much as I can over the 2010 and 2007 drafts.
Even if you just take the road splits and figure he could do the same over a full season somewhere else, a very dubious claim, you still end up with a player who has plenty of holes overlooked by most fans pre-trade. Sure he hit .295 in 65 road games but even still he only had a .330 OBP, a sub .770 OPS, a .140 ISO, and a 107 wRC+. That would make a decent rookie year but for someone who I would only want being a DH or perhaps a terrible first baseman it’s not great. It’s certainly not what many fans were projecting.
People got so bullish on Montero being the next Edgar Martinez/Manny Ramirez they over looked the low walk totals, the swings and misses in the strikezone, and the fact that the previously exaggerated power never quite showed. Everyone was so certain he was a .320/.390, 40-50 HR guy they overlooked the likely .280/.320, 25-30 HR guy who was developing in front of them.
Given what the Yankees knew at the time I’d do that deal 10 times out of 10, so I’m with you in not being able to lay that trade at their feet as an example of how they mishandle prospects.
Are we now labeling DH’s as “premier position-player talent”? Because unless you make him out to be a catcher, something even the Mariners don’t seem to be pretending to so anymore, his “position” only exists in half the game and only requires swinging the bat. I’d be quicker to put the label of premier position-player talent on Ajax before I would Montero. Had the Yankees Actually believed in him to even be a bad catcher I doubt they trade him, though at the time Pineda and Campos for Montero and Noesi looked like a full on win regardless.
Hey Chris, if you’re responding to me I agree with you about Montero! I essentially made the same point you did about him not having a position (other than DH) and I’m pretty sure it was Matt, not me, that used the phrase “premier position-player talent”.
I’m just walking back my (incorrect) comment about Safeco not affecting Montero’s hitting stats last season because the numbers show otherwise. And if Pineda does not come back (or is really diminisshed) and Montero is at least serviceable then (unless Campos proves out) the M’s win the trade. It happens. I still would have made the trade and, as I said, I don’t think it’s nearly as big a deal as the poor drafts in 2007 and 2010.
I believe that Montero did cross the “dick” threshold…..in other words…he did do dick.
Brilliant insight there Dave.
Have you figured out yet why hitting 3 HR in two separate games out of 10 doesn’t mean that you’ve homered in 60% of the games?
Here’s an idea for the Yanks:
Joba wants to be a starter? Okay, Joba, you’re making $1.875M in 2013, right? Sign a one-year extension for the same amount on one condition: you prepare to be a starter for the 2014 Yankees by pitching in AAA all of 2013, no September callup, and you may have to compete for the fifth starter job in spring training – nothing handed to you but the time to build yourself back up to be a starting pitcher again. If you don’t win a starting job in 2014 spring training, the Yanks have all of April / until May 1, 2014 to trade you which means you have to make some starts in AAA in 2014 before you can opt out or are traded, unless you don’t want to opt out ie you want to keep working in AAA to get the callup or be traded to an MLB team who thinks you’re good enough to join their rotation.
Yankees Risk: Joba can’t win a job out of spring training, the Yanks pay $1.875M for an AAA starter, and might lose him May 1, 2014 (and pay $1.875M for a month of his services in the regular season.)
Yankees Reward: The Yanks get a solid fifth starter or better for peanuts.
Joba Risk: He doesn’t make the Yankees’ 2014 rotation and is either still in AAA or a free agent with no takers if he opts out.
Joba Reward: He is in the 2014 Yankees rotation and has such a good 2014, 15 to 20 teams call for his services in 2015.